THE CHURCH KAMASUTRA: NOW, WILL CHRISTIANS STOP TEASING HINDU GODS?
EX-NUN’S CONFESSIONS SET TO ROCK KERALA CHURCH
http://www.indianexpress.com/story_print.php?storyid=425407
Thiruvananathapuram : Already reeling under several controversies, the Kerala Catholic Church is facing fresh embarrassment from a tell-all autobiography written by a nun who recently quit the Order alleging harassment from superiors.
‘Amen — an autobiography of a nun’, released last week, is written by Dr Sister Jesme, 52, who was the Principal of St Mary’s College, Thrissur, till last August when she quit the Congregation of Mother Carmelite (CMC).
“Dedicated to Jesus”, Amen is explicit in its details of the sexual repression and harassment behind the Church walls as well as the draconian rules and “greed” of the Order. Jesme claims that since the book was released, she has been getting calls pledging solidarity.
“Nuns mingle with the whole spectrum of the community around them. They teach students, comfort the aged and nurse the sick; still the brides of the Church remain an enigma. My work would throw light on the misunderstood convent life, engulfed in darkness,” says Jesme.
Apart from the Abhaya murder in which a nun and priests are accused, the Kerala Church was recently in the news for a priest “adopting” a 26-year-old woman.
Jesme’s autobiography includes a poignant version by her of how the convent authorities tried to twice prove that she had mental problems and get her admitted into a rehab centre after she reportedly spoke out against the malpractices within the Order.
Starting with her first days in the Church, 30 years ago, she talks of priets forcing novices to have relations with them and the closet homosexuality within nun ranks, “which the Church reckons as the dirtiest thing possible”. “If nuns developed unusual interest in each other, authorities would deploy other inmates to watch them,” she writes.
The book says Jesme herself was forced into such a relationship by a fellow nun, and that her complaints to a senior nun were ignored. According to her, the other nun said she preferred such a relationship as it ruled out pregnancy. There were others who had affairs with priests, she writes.
Another passage in Amen deals with a chance encounter Jesme had with a priest in Bangalore while on her way to Dharwar to attend a UGC refresher course in English. “My plan was to stay at the waiting room at the Bangalore railway station. But sisters in the convent gave me the address of a pious, decent priest. When I reached Bangalore, the priest was waiting to receive me. He embraced me and took me to his presbytery. After breakfast, he took me to Lalbagh (Botanical Garden) and showed me several pairs cuddling behind trees. He also gave a sermon on the necessity of physical love and described the illicit affairs certain bishops and priests had.”
Later, when they were in his room, she writes, he stripped and made her do the same.
Jesme claims that while nuns in the lower ranks were punished if caught for even minor offences, the Church turned a blind eye to those superior or with influence for major transgressions.
Talking about the Church’s draconian rules, Jesme writes in the book that she was not allowed to go home when her father died, or to even pray some extra hours for his soul. “I was able to see my father barely 15 minutes before the funeral. The alibi of the superiors was that the then senior sisters were not even lucky enough to see the bodies of their parents.”
During her time in the Church, Jesme often ran into problems with superiors. She was called “cine nun” after she provided office facility for a film festival at St Mary’s College, leading to the first campus film from the college, as well as when she shared dais with a sex worker for the release of a book on the life of a prostitute.
Since quitting CMC, Jesme has been staying alone in a flat in Kozhikode. She told The Indian Express she was still living as a “nun”. “I go for Church mass daily and have no plans to get married.”
Tailpiece: See the Hindu slumdog millionaire here. http://www.currybear.com/wordpress/?p=2316#comments
Deepak Kamat is Editor in Chief of 'AseemaA', Journal for National Resurgence. Email: deepakastrologer@gmail.com
Fascist Trends in Indian Media
March 25th, 2009 at 4:05 am
Fool, Catholic PM sonia is converting India also and we are fighting against that.
CHURCH is USING LTTE to KILL HINDUS and BUDDHISTS and trying to carve a CHRISTIAN NATION “Ealam” carving south India and Sri Lanka.
The Christian missionaries are planning to do what they did in Indonesia. They created a Christian Timor. They got rid of Hindu monarchy using maoists in Nepal. Now Prachanda, a christian is planning to convert whole of Nepal.
The Christian missionaries are most virulent creatures wiping out entire civilizations.
Read and learn here http://victimofprejudice.blogspot.com/
Send this site to all your friends.
March 25th, 2009 at 4:10 am
Here is the exact link on the web site. There are several links you should read all that. Basically Christian Congress govt. in India is doing all it can to convert India using any means with whoever it can. It’s using LTTE also. Norway is funding it, other western churches are also funding it. Also all south Indian states are becoming Christian. Hindus are getting persecuted. LTTE is not a pro-tamil organization but a pro-Christian organisation.
Exporting Intolerance: How Churchis engineering a ‘Christian’ nation Ealam combining south India and Sri Lanka using terrorist LTTE
March 25th, 2009 at 6:05 am
Do you guys have a recommendation section, i’d like to suggest some stuff
March 25th, 2009 at 8:47 am
@ with greater support of india with great support from catholic leader.
I think you should follow the thread here and you will soon realize all educated secular citizens consider India is being ruled by a implant from Vatican. If she is supporting Christian LTTE I am not surprised. She is actually converting Tamil Nadu into Christian state. Hindus whether in India or Sri Lanka are getting raw deal. So I am with you but you got your facts wrong.
Dump LTTE.
March 25th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
The Church always worked for the Liberation of the oppressed.. Be it dalit liberation from the clutches of Brahmins, or black’s of South Africa etc etc.
be it Indonesia/SriLanka/South Korea.
Liberation through education!! thats the prime theme of catholic church. Once people get educated, they themselves will voice for their rights.. And its in accordance with christian doctrine, that, ‘God created humanbeings in him image, and hence each human being is entitled to have his basic human rights.
March 25th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Deepak Kamat>>He refuses to look at truth and keeps chewing the same old padre cud.>>
Can gods be Un-holy? Im seriously seeking the truth on this. Pls enlighten me.
March 25th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
@ Sapr33,
God is just a mental concept for you. Real God with a capital G transcends both the body and the mind.
March 25th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
The Church always worked for the Liberation of the oppressed.. Be it dalit liberation from the clutches of Brahmins, or black’s of South Africa etc etc.
Ha Ha Ha.. Sapr33’s Christianity seems to be like the liberation theology of Marx.
March 25th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
Deepak Kamat>>Real God with a capital G transcends both the body and the mind.>>
If God is myself/oneself(as hinduism teaches), then you should explain…
1)Why we need to do good to others?
2) The same god also be in the terrorist..So what differnce God makes..
3)In that context why we need such idea God. Nothing will happen even if we reject God.
Let me know what s ur reponse to this..
March 25th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
@ Sapr33,
God is in realisation. It is not an hypotheses. Just as a baboon does not understand nuclear physics. In a similar manner, a gross person cannot realise God.
March 25th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
dear religion fanatics
If God is myself/oneself(as hinduism teaches), then you should explain…
1)Why we need to do good to others?
2) The same god also be in the terrorist..So what differnce God makes..
3)In that context why we need such idea God. Nothing will happen even if we reject God.
Rain water is also water and ditch/drainage water is also water, do you sense any differnce between them. Ditch water will become rain water after it purify itself. Purifying self is process which every being got to undergo. Even after,if you stick with your uncouth religion fanatic way, cant help.
March 25th, 2009 at 7:37 pm
a gross person cannot realise God.
Every being in the earth will realiaze god, course of time differ, relaisation is timeless until you realise self time bound.
Agasath pathi tham thoyam yatha kachathu saharam sarva deva namaskaraha kesavam prathikachathu.
rain jall pours into pond,pool,ditch,channal,river all goes to ocean then all will be called saharam ocean only.
March 26th, 2009 at 8:53 am
Easwar>>Rain water is also water and ditch/drainage water is also water, do you sense any differnce between them>>
With this analogy, i have a counter view.. Draingae water cannot be God-In-Human who is undergoing the process of cleaning to become sea water (GOd).
Rather, the filtering sand,soil,cloud could be viewed as God logically.Somethign supreme. Otherwise, there is no difference between man-god..rather, one dont need god
Deepak Kamath>>God is in realisation. It is not an hypotheses. >>
If so, any one can realize anything as God.. A thief can realise his own ‘Theieftain God’.. A terrorist can realise his own god who gonna assure him 72 virgins, soon after he blasting himself in a crowded place. They all realise god in their own way, as hinduism preaches…
Can that be a true God!! There must be some guidance right..If God was true, then, he must have revealed himself or communicated to us, in one or other convincing way right
March 26th, 2009 at 9:03 am
I feel rotten again since my followers do this and call it christian persecution to blame Hindus and get some dollars. This time they are caught with nice mug shots
http://www.daijiworld.com/news/news_disp.asp?n_id=57924
They are Jayson Verghese (23), Vijit Sunny Rozario (21), Araki Alfred (20), Roshan Cutinho (26), all from Nityadhar Nagar and Ronald Roshan (22), a resident of Kuttar Prakash Nagar. They were produced in the court on Wednesday.
March 26th, 2009 at 9:04 am
Christian Sinster agenda exposed: Seven Christians Arrested for Damaging Church Property
http://www.haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx?PageID=8441&SKIN=C
Go and enjoy those photos. They look like Koli Kallas
http://www.daijiworld.com/news/news_disp.asp?n_id=57924
March 26th, 2009 at 11:02 am
Easwar>>Rain water is also water and ditch/drainage water is also water, do you sense any differnce between them>>
With this analogy, i have a counter view.. Draingae water cannot be God-In-Human who is undergoing the process of cleaning to become sea water (GOd).
even child can understand this simple logic, since you always talk of analogy, as kamat said you need more and more yoga to realaise yourself. So much of difference in you. Dont use analogy for realiazing god but see unique unity which is god. Analogy = difference but god = unity do you have differece over this.
March 26th, 2009 at 11:46 am
eashwar-trich-
even child can understand this simple logic, since you always talk of analogy, as kamat said you need more and more yoga to realaise yourself. So much of difference in you. Dont use analogy for realiazing god but see unique unity which is god. Analogy = difference but god = unity do you have differece over this.
Why can’t you send your wife to that padre again instead of lecturing about stupid hindu doctrine?. hinduism is a failed religion and to save it the bhajrang, ramsene and sangh outfits have taken attack-route by rapes murders and destroying the places of worship of other faiths.
If you really loved hinduism then you would’nt be here supporting these evil worshippers doing evil things all in the name of god.
Just open tehelka webnsite and find the truth what is this saffron think tank is all about.
And if you agree to their view then send your mother for gang rape to avenge their killings.
http://www.tehalka.com
March 26th, 2009 at 5:25 pm
Explaining Yoga to Imtiaz Ahmed is like teaching nuclear physics to a baboon.
March 26th, 2009 at 5:35 pm
@sapr333,
If God is myself/oneself(as hinduism teaches), then you should explain…
1)Why we need to do good to others?
2) The same god also be in the terrorist..So what differnce God makes..
3)In that context why we need such idea God. Nothing will happen even if we reject God.
i like your question and thanks for it. since it made me to start thinking of Gita and Hinduism very deeply. some time back i also asked myself these questions. but after some years now i think i can try to clarify little bit about it. i got little knowledge thru listening Gita discourses and from talkings. one thing is that there are lot of schools of thoughts in Hinduism. so as nobody is perfect while explaining it. it is like an ocean and you can find the meaning within meaning like layers. it is telling that more than one life time it willl take to understand the complete meaning because it has to be learned not only thru reading but experience also. still i am writing what i understood from Gita.
The people who doing good work / sincere service to others will have the atmost satisfaction and pleasure thus they will be nearer to the god. The soul of the person who doing the Karma (that can be in any forms) with atmost care and devotion will be merged in to the Parabrahma through the high satisfaction he getting. So once you find your Karma in the life you only have to do that with sincerity and devotion. For finding out the proper Karma, you have to use your Knowledge and mind. If everything God is doing the there is no necessity of other beings.
Then the question arises that a person who is doing ‘DushKarma’ also will be elevate to that position if he have sincerity and devotion? Answer is ‘No;. the reason is that there are three types of Karma also. Satvika, Rajasa and Thamasa. The mind of Satvika will be clear like water. Only the clear mind will have the concentration of 5 Senses, Soul, wisdom and Mind. And as you asked a terrorist’s or any common mind will be always agitating like dirty water. He can’t visualize the purpose of life through that and this will result in his activities. this combination of Soul, Senses,Mind and Knowledge will decide one’s (soul) destiny.
It is not that ‘Man is God’ as you told in the terrorist example. In terrorist also God is there, means God’s part existing (Soul). A soul or the Energy which gives the life, and an individual dontav independent existence. As per Hindu philosophy all living beings have soul and all are PART of God. That is the meaning of ‘Aham Brahmasmi’ (I am The Brahmam) and ‘Tat thwam asi’ {That (Brahmam) is you.}
This is the case of one living being. Then what about the Universe. It is just a replica of an individual but made up of individual liberated souls (energy). The Universe also have its own Soul, Knowledge and Mind fields, but in a bigger manner. That Soul is calling as Almighty or God (‘Parabrahmam’ in Hindu Philosaphy).
For Hindus it is not necessary to God reveal Himself. He is self-explanatory in . Only thing is that we should know it. For that purpose only, ancient sadhus done thru Sadhanas and hard Tapasyas and got that knowledge and they shared it through Holy books like Gita.
March 26th, 2009 at 8:21 pm
Please read and act where necessary
CURRENT CAMPAIGNS
@ http://victimofprejudice.blogspot.com/
March 27th, 2009 at 9:32 am
Bijoy, atleast you are the only one who attempted here to talk about the hindu philosophy.
First of all, if god is himself and further linked through Karma, you will have a logical fallacy in Karma itself. I can add maya also here.
For, eg, a terrorist can kill a lot and justify himself on karma, saying, he was killed by another in his previous life. An untouchable can only accept it as a victim of past karma. These kind of things violates the sole purpose of life,Objective in life and disrecpects humanrights. In that context, Jesus Christ’s ‘Good Samaritan Parable’ stands tall..Its a higher moral standard than ‘Live and Let Live’…
And coming to karma, how come animals earn good karma and elevate to higher life?
Similarly, you claimed god may not need to reveal himself to us.Where as you failed to understand the role of Rama/Krishna? If God is there, and he is all loving, then he someday should reveal to us. Otherwise, mankind can even reject God, an unseen one. In this context, the Christian scriptures are simple, Not-Complex/Confusing,philosophically,logically convincing, sequentional, coherent and historically backed, and thats one reason the christianity has grown well among the developing nations very fast.
Lastly, in defnining man-as-god, hinduism failed to distinguish Good Vs Bad. Each one decides his own good n bad,which feels suitable for him.(we can talk a lot bt it later)
In earlier days, people never had access to hindu scriptures or philosophy and they blindly believed what the pundi said . Now, in this modern day, the future generation children will ask the same questions to the parent. They may ask, how can an un-holy god inspire me to do good things.Like Pramod Mahajan’s son said , ‘I was once a kind of Krishna”…And they look out for seeking truth of God in other religions…Thats one reason, in this modern era of communications, lots of Christian conversions are taking place in Cities/Metros. And fearing the lack of theology, hindus wants to protect the Gods through ‘Anti-conversion law”’, which no developed nation has such one..
Ps: pls respond back.. Its indeed interesting to read ur post
March 27th, 2009 at 9:50 am
Bijoy>>If everything God is doing the there is no necessity of other beings.>>
I missed out this.. According to Christian view, God is every thing, but he has given freewill to man. Thats the key point which contradicts ‘Maya’
Otherwise, God of Christianity, with a touch of a button, could have made all the people in the world as ‘Christians’.. Freewill is something an important point unique in Christian tradition, compared to Hinduism. This ‘Freewill’ answers all the human logical questions, unlike confused ‘MAYA Doctrine.
Now clubbing the earlier points, lets analyse polytheism of hinduism.
When there are multiple gods then their ethical systems either do not conflict, conflict, or do not exist. If they do not exist, then ethics are invented and baseless. The weakness of that position is self-evident. If the ethical systems do not conflict then on what principle do they align? Whatever that aligning principle is would be more ultimate than the gods. The gods are not ultimate since they answer to some other authority. Therefore there is a higher reality to which one should adhere. This fact makes polytheism seem shallow if not empty. On the third option, if the gods conflict in their standards of right and wrong, then to obey one God is to risk disobeying another incurring punishment. Ethics would be relative. Good for one god would not necessarily be “good” in an objective and universal sense. For example, sacrificing one’s child to Kali would be commendable to one stream of Hinduism but reprehensible to many others. But surely, child sacrifice, as such, is objectionable regardless. Or some have Thief gods, and the thieves pray to that god for better booty.Some things by all reason and appearance are right or wrong, regardless.
These are the questions future generation children would ask their hindu parents. Matter of fact, very miniscule parents are ready to even attempt an answer.
March 27th, 2009 at 10:01 am
Bijoy>>The people who doing good work / sincere service to others will have the atmost satisfaction and pleasure thus they will be nearer to the god>>
Again, the good and bad is subjective according to Hinduism. for eg, a Brahmin practising untouchablity may be right according to his Ritualistic purity and where as wrong for a dalit in terms of human respect. That where the major argument against KARMA goes, in which, the Authority of God and his Absolute Justice is missing in the concept of god in hinduism.
for eg,
One could do good works to “even the balance” but one cannot ever dispose of sin. Karma does not even provide a context whereby moral error is even moral. Who have we offended if we sin in private, for example? Karma does not care one way or the other because karma is not a person. For example, suppose one man kills another man’s son. He may offer money, property, or his own son to the offended party. But he cannot un-kill the young man. No amount of compensation can make up for that sin. Can atonement come by prayer or devotion to a Shiva or Vishnu? Even if those characters offer forgiveness it seems like sin would still be an unpaid debt. They would forgive sin as if it is excusable, no big deal, and then wave people on through the gates of bliss.
Christianity, however, treats sin as moral error against a single, ultimate, and personal God. Ever since Adam, humans have been sinful creatures. Sin is real, and it sets an infinite gap between man and bliss. Sin demands justice. Yet it cannot be “balanced out” with an equal or greater number of good works. If someone has ten times more good works than bad works, then that person still has evil on his or her conscience. What happens to these remaining bad works? Are they just forgiven as if they were not a big deal in the first place? Are they permitted into bliss? Are they mere illusions, thus leaving no problem whatsoever? None of these options is suitable. Concerning illusion, sin is too real to us to be explained away as illusion. Concerning sinfulness, when we are honest with ourselves we all know we have sinned. Concerning forgiveness, to simply forgive sin at no cost treats sin like it is not of much consequence. We know that to be false. Concerning bliss, bliss is not much good if sin keeps getting smuggled in. It seems that the scales of karma leave us with sin on our hearts and a sneaking suspicion that we have violated some ultimately personal standard of right and wrong. And bliss either cannot tolerate us or it must cease being perfect so that we can come in.
In nutshell, Christianity places the highest authority of Moral/Judgement in God. That serves the purpose of having a Godhead too.
March 27th, 2009 at 11:13 am
conversation between Sapr & Kathiravan(who is not in this site so far) in other site free speech.
Kathiravan:Very well said aravind, absolutly correct that its has false religion, we needless to try clean goal it will vanish one its own. We obvious are to see west almost cleansed now those people are become atheist later will join with indian ocean.
This Sapr seems to Camouflage drank truth dregs which will like out.
This wild people are aiming to enhance gold market religion. spritual cant Be marketed goal its year induvidual realiazation. I amndt from Tamilian nadu where pathinen sidha has like most from Tamilian nadu (other than pathanjali/vyakarpathar/bogar). This Jesus teaching will not just meet any off our sidha teach. Jesus has learned nap from india which He used it there.
This idiots are teaching tamilian, We are the first civiliazed people in world. nonsense of which teach your shame ful tradition to our rich Tamilian culture people. Tamilian yew you want learn as to nadu and learn (tamilian are will varuvorai vazha vaipawan) and ask your childran to learn our rich tradition off Tamilian culture.
Of which Camouflage whose try to could your british literacy, I am not strong in english & I am year indian that too tamilan, goal it does not mean that I amndt fool. (Kal thondra maan thondra kallathil tamilan thondriyavan.)
Poor man like ruben are eligible people to convert to chiristianity, these culprits can convert this kind of ignorant not tamilan. See his mind they suggested all evil to him. His thoughts are full of religion but not true spritual.
these fools do not know what is religion and spritual. Come tamil nadu and learn. That is what west people are started learning now here. They think that they can reach god just by chamcha jinjak..God does not require any party men he needs your pure mind. just leave your purity to him then you can see yourself with god and within it.
Sapr says: sapr33333 3/25/2009 3:06:49 PM (#30 of 33)
Kathiravan>>> Come tamil nadu and learn.>>
Tamilnadu & Andhra are the two states which has the highest Christian growth rate in the last 10Years.. Im quoting census.
Hmm!! Infact, T.N Govt has even given reservations to Christians.. No other state enjoys that.
kathiravan 26-Mar-2009 11:00 AM
Sapr: ‘Come tamil nadu and learn’
:Tamilnadu & Andhra are the two states which has the highest Christian growth rate in the last 10Years.. Im quoting census
So wat, there are some ignorants who join as a cadre that too with lot of expectation. Is that you mean real spritualism?
Are you guts to say/compare teaching of jesus and thiruvalluvar. Can you tell me which important teaching of thiruvalluvar is not there or missing that is there in jesus teaching. If you are not tamilian read thirukural fully and get back to me.
Give me a depth of comparison between these two. Then i acknowledge your view that people of tamilnadu can convert to west culture.
you should not camouflage anything but be frank. write/compare as it is, should not give only jesus but both should be there.
If you dont know about thirukural iwill explain by kural by kural & you can by jesus teaching.
sapr dont answer to me but answer to kathiravan at freespeech or i request him to join him here?
March 30th, 2009 at 8:38 am
@sapr333
———First of all, if god is himself and further linked through Karma, you will have a logical fallacy in Karma itself. I can add maya also here.
For, eg, a terrorist can kill a lot and justify himself on karma, saying, he was killed by another in his previous life. An untouchable can only accept it as a victim of past karma.
At first I am admitting my helplessness to post my arguments and replies immediately since I have to depend cybercafe for that. please wait for my postings and don’t break this thread… I will try to reply at least for some questions in my capacity. I don’t want to use this for scoring points against each other and expecting an open mind without prejudices. Hopes then we can learn something from each others.
I am sorry to say that you had more prejudice while seeing my last postings. if we takes the first point, never I told that man=God. I was telling that God’s portion is there in the soul. ie, Soul is a Part of God ‘the Parabrahma’. The examples of terrorist and untouchable you shown is in poor light as per my beliefs. The destiny of any being is not decided by himself, rather it is decided by the God only or you can say the Cosmic Power ( I am going to use the same word as I think you can agree with it). If I can decide myself from my past experiences, it would be good, but it is not possible bcoz I can’t remember my past ‘Janma’. It is not that he became a terrorist to take vengeance to some action of some people in last birth, but he became a terrorist bcoz of some of his actions in last birth made him to a lower status to become a terrorist and the present actions will turn him to a more complex situation. It is the choice of one’s mind to be a terrorist or not.. Then the case of ‘untouchable’ it can be consider as a social problem (man made ) as the individual dontav any choice on that . so it can’t come under ‘Hindu philosophy’ since this chathurvarnya started at a later stage.
Still I have to mention about it… firstly we should think the root of ‘Chathurvarnya’. it was just the realignment in the ancient society in terms of the works they done. But when the Brahmins got the significant power in society they just wanted to retain their power and done so (as anybody else and personally I don’t like it). So they made the people in lower strata ‘untouchable’. Other than this, it dontav any direct relation to ‘Hindu Philosophy’. Now you take the case of an untouchable. He is the scapegoat of a rotten system. So as per Gita is it valid?. Never… in my understanding, he is the person who having more relation to God, than a ‘Brahmin’ who victimizing him for his birth in a lower social strata. (One more question is there that who is ‘Brahmin’? Brahmin is a person ‘who knows the ‘Brahmam’ and who knows the relation between a soul and ‘brahmam’. Mere birth in a family wont make anybody a Brahmin.). Then why cant we think that the Brahmin who victimized him will have to go again in the circle of birth and death and so to fall in more sorrows? Definitely the virtue of ‘untouchable is more than the so called Brahmin as per philosaphy.
Now you come to present situation. What is happening here? The social tendencies just reversed in favour of old ‘untouchable’ and the so called Brahmins are just cursing their forefathers for the misdeeds and accepting the truth of Fruit of Karma. I don’t think anybody will be there who will sympathize with most of the Brahmin’s today’s plight. Most of the people admitting it is the result of not only particular person’s deeds, but the complete Brahmin society’s deeds. I hope now you can see the full circle.
Here one another point also coming in comparison. Christianity telling very beautifully about the services to poor and the sins to be avoided and virtues required for the persons and life after death also. But it is not clear about the question why the untouchable became so, or financially or physically weak person became so. Like anything in universe this also should have some reason. That reasoning is clear in Gita through Janma-Karma relations. can you clear this one?
I hope we can continue this discussion as I want to talk and understand lot of things. (this i am writing b4 i saw your third reply to my posting and i written only one point for your posting (time being Mayavada and others we can keep aside).
April 1st, 2009 at 6:35 pm
Hi,
If somebody is comitting a mistake, we need not retort with cheap things. The bedroom scene shown here under the photographs of Bhagat singh and Swami Vivekananda doesn’t go well. Our readers and brilliant enough to absorb the matter without such cheap photographs.
April 1st, 2009 at 10:43 pm
@sapr333
Karma is a simple concept widely misunderstood mainly due to misinformation. It just means our actions will have consequenses. It doesn’t necessarily mean that if we do bad deeds bad things happen to us. It just means that those deeds will have consequences, may be good or bad. It is just another way of saying “look before you leap”. If you disagree to that you are the most naive person I’ve ever seen.
April 1st, 2009 at 10:55 pm
@Bijoy
FYI Brahmins never constituted the upper strata of the society. Also the descrimination to Dalits started in the post-vedic period. Generally the adjective that precedes Brahmins is “poor”. Most Brahmins were poor except the ones appointed by the King as his advisors. But yeah, Brahmins were respected people, but they weren’t rich. The blaming of Brahmins has started only recently by people who couldn’t stand them. Those who used to ill-treat the lower society are themselves blaming the Brahmins for it and guess what, they too receive all the reservations. See the irony. Its naive to blame Karma for the present situation for it is not necessary for a person who was a Brahmin in his previous life to be one in his present. And Karma obviously isn’t like bonded labour which goes from father to son. Karma belongs to a soul, not a community or a family.
April 1st, 2009 at 11:00 pm
Read the following article by David Frawley:
Dealing With Caste
One of the most difficult issues for modern Hinduism is the problem of caste.
Hinduism has been stereotyped as a caste religion in which family of birth is
more important than any individual merit. This anti-caste sentiment has been
the main vehicle of anti-Hindu propaganda. Whether it is leftists, Christians
or Muslims when you mention Hinduism, it is not Yoga and Vedanta with
their universal spiritual vision that they emphasize but caste, as if there was
nothing more to Hinduism.
Caste or varna originally refers to the four divisions of traditional Hindu
society as the Brahmin or priestly class, the Kshatriya or noble class, the
Vaishya or merchant class and the Shudras or servant class. Originally it
was a threefold division of the priests, nobility and common people. The
word Vaishya for the merchant class derives from Vish, which means people
in general. The Vaishyas were also divided into the merchants proper and
the farmers. Apart from these four castes was a fifth or mixed caste. Similar
social orders dominated the ancient and medieval worlds, like the European
division of the priests, nobility, merchants and common people or peasants.
Though in the modern world caste appears backwards it was probably
inevitable given the social and material circumstances of these previous
eras.
These castes in India were not rigid and allowed for an upward movement.
Women could marry up in caste and their children’s caste would become
that of their father. Castes could fall in status, as when a Brahmin family had
to take on non-Brahmanical occupations like becoming merchants. In Vedic
times individuals who demonstrated the ability could rise in caste as well.
Moreover, to become a monk in Hinduism one always has had to renounce
all caste identity.
The Hindu caste or varna system, moreover, is very different than the
European class system. The Brahmins or priestly class were wedded to a life
of austerity and learning and not allowed to accumulate wealth or power.
The exceptions were the royal Brahmins who were in the service of the
kings. They sometimes acted as political and legal advisors. They were often
given large land grants to found schools and temples. Unfortunately, some of
them fell from the required austerity of their class and began to function
more like landowners. A few Brahmins also took on Kshatriya roles and
became kings. This was allowed as an exception if the Kshatriya class failed
at its duties.
However, the average village Brahmin or temple priest has remained to the
present day, a poor scholar, teacher or ritualist, working in the service of the
community for a menial subsistence. The temple priests of South India today
are among the poorest of the poor.
The Marxist propaganda of the Brahmins as the wicked landowners
oppressing the poor untouchables, is an exaggeration that is seldom true.
Most of the landowners in India are not Brahmins, which was never their
traditional occupation. In classical India few groups aspired to become
Brahmins any more than the average medieval European peasant wanted to
become a priest. The powerful Kshatriya or the wealthy Vaishya was the
social ideal.
I remember when a western friend first came to India. He saw porters
carrying luggage for wealthier Indians and remarked how the Brahmins were
still using the poorer people as servants. Though he was not a leftist, he was
so influenced by the anti-Brahmin propaganda that he assumed that the rich
people were Brahmins and their wealth was based on caste, which was not
the case at all. When I informed him of his error he was surprised.
Untouchability is also misunderstood. It was originally a matter of social
purity, reflecting the principle of non-violence. Brahmins could not eat out of
utensils in which meat or other impure food articles had been cooked. This
led to a ban on eating with non-Brahmins; particularly those who had impure
forms of livelihood like butchers. This led eventually to a ban on association
with such people.
Untouchability arose from an excessive pursuit of purity, like the purity of a
monk who could not associate with those who worked in bars or taverns.
Unfortunately this untouchability became extreme and has become a bane
on Hindu society. But it is hardly the same situation as the rich European
aristocracy who would not mingle with peasants.
Caste as this traditional varna system hardly exists in India today anyway.
Most Brahmins today do not follow Brahmanical occupations like temple
priests, though most do promote good education in their families. The same
is true of the other castes. Most Kshatriyas are not in military, police or
government service. A number of Shudra groups are quite wealthy,
particularly in South India. But the poor and untouchables still remain, kept
up not only by social prejudices but also by a high birth rate. While the
educated in India as throughout the world have fewer children, the
uneducated still have many. So the caste problem is also a problem of poor
education and overpopulation. The best way to address it is not by
promoting caste divisions but by directly tackling these overriding problems.
Modern India is divided not so much by caste as by family or tribe (jati).
Different families, communities and regional groups promote their own
particular interests over that of the nation. This phenomenon starts with the
Nehru family itself, which has tried to dominate the country like a monarchy
with an hereditary right to rule, in the meantime amassing wealth and power
for itself. Such family divisions are responsible for the many regional political
parties that exist in India today as well as the demands for special rights and
reservations for various communities. This divisive thinking is the real
problem, not the Vedic varnas. It destroys any feeling of national unity and
causes people to seek to take advantage of the government for their
personal ends.
April 2nd, 2009 at 9:11 am
@sapr333
Your another question was how come animals earn good karma and elevate to higher life. As I told you earlier Karma is related to mind, knowledge and senses. With the use of these balanced factors, we can do our Karma properly. In animal’s case this is not properly balanced. They have very strong senses and knowledge of their living circumstances, but the usage of mind (thinking) is poor. (Mostly the outcome of our thinking only decideds one deed is good or bad). They can judge the realtime happenings, but curiosity to know ‘what,why,when and how’ is much lower than human beings (This is one of the difference of Human beings and animals). The result is that they living with a rather monotonous life with only the basic needs like food and shelter. Their Karma is mainly attached with these things and so there is no much chance for any Dushkarma. this will automatically elevate them to next manifestation.
i will try to answer for polyethism and differanciation of good and bad in Hinduism and some of other questions in my capacity in following days.
April 2nd, 2009 at 10:52 am
@Harsh,
even i am acknowledging most of your comments, i am different in one thing that sapr333 have pointed out earlier. the Brahmin’s in post vedic era were very much reluctant to pass Sanskrit, philosaphy and ocean of knowledge like Vedas, puranas to other than the people who socially attached with them like other Brahmins, Rulers and their dependents and the people who helped them in priestly duties. this is one of the logical reason i can find for our (common man) lack of complete knowledge in those subjects, not to forget that lot of exceptional Gurus also were there who taught the subjects to ‘Shudras’ also.
while talking about Karma i was not intended to tell that the particular person have to enter in the loop of janma-karma bcoz of his deeds. the cosmic resultant may happened to anything or anybody which the person’s ‘mind and senses attached’ or ‘related’. so it can happen after some generation or in the next moment. but anyway there will be clear punishment or reward from the almighty as per nature’s law.
April 4th, 2009 at 4:25 am
Before you start in debates with missionaries please do understand how they have raped, looted and exterminated civilizations all over planet Earth
i.e 2 BILLION HUMANS ON 6 CONTINENTS FOR 2000 YEARS.
PREPARE YOURSELF
Great Minds & Rational Words
Evils of “MOTHER” TERESA!
TRICKS of the TRADE
GLOBAL GENOCIDES
ONGOING GENOCIDES
RECENT GENOCIDES
2000 YEARS of HELL on EARTH
GENOCIDE of 100 million people
HITLER and CHRISTIANITY
Why 6 million jews were killed
MORE INFO @ http://victimofprejudice.blogspot.com/
April 14th, 2009 at 11:55 am
CHRISTIAN MOTHER IN CHURCH KILLS DAUGHTERS’ FRIEND, RAPES HER WITH OBJECT
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/13/melissa-huckaby-rape-alle_n_186462.html
Imagine what can missionaries do?
July 15th, 2009 at 7:24 am
evangelist marries 8-year-old, this is worse than muhammad marrying aisha at 9!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090715/ap_on_re_us/us_evangelist_child_abuse
CHURCH = SEX
http://www.rickross.com/groups/clergy.html
November 15th, 2009 at 6:03 am
Great anti Christian Forum. Cheer to all who hate Christ and his Doctrine. Alas Gandhi became Mahatma subtlely by following the principles of Christ and making it his own principle and checkmate the rulers who claimed in believing christ..
Agreed USA is not a Christian Nation, neither Europians. Because Christianity did not originated in west but in Asia. I will no be surprised if USA becomes a majority Hindu nation or Europe a majority Muslim. Because non of them follow the principle of Christ. The Christian Principles are based on not some kind of religious system but on TRUTH. TRUTH the world cannot understand neither the religions of the world can comprehend. If they would they would be the follower of Christ.
Christ Hates the SIN but Loves the Sinner. Every one born on the earth with a man is a born sinner and lives a sinful live. Nothing can give moksha to this fallen man.
There is no name given on the earth or below the earth or above the earth by which man will get moksha except the name of JESUS.
Those who reject this GOSPEL are DESTINED FOR CONDEMNATION AND ETERNAL DISTRUCTION.
Now about Sex, Killings, or deception, it is that fallen human nature that manifest in all human beings of all races and religion. Because no religion can save a man from it including christian religious system. Only JESUS CHRIST can save.
I AM A HIGH CASTE HINDU CONVERT TO THE TRUTH (JESUS CHRIST).
NO POWER ON THE EARTH CAN BUY ME OR RULE OVER ME.
Its OK for majority on the earth not to follow christ because they cannot.
Because it is easy to live in sin, sex, idol worship, money and hate.
About hinduism; its not a religion but the culture and traditions and practices followed by the people in INDUS Valley. I would not like to speak aboiut them. Let them analys their own belief system. They are responsible for their own distruction. Non of my concern except if any is ready to hear with a open heart.
November 15th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
Its a pity that Ajay is not able to see through what is being fought against!! It is not the JC or his doctrine (?) that is being targeted. It is the bunch of bigots who start preaching theirs alone is the perfect(?) religion. Can take a exception if they stop at that…but they dont. They are spewing venom on others’ faiths and contriving a new devises to shoot up the head count. That is what is being criticised here. You have your own house to cleanup then why mock others?
For all who say, if we reject JC’s gospel, we are going to be doomed say something about Lord Buddha, the saints who wrote the Upanishads or Lord MahaVira or Saint Thiruvalluvar!
So idol worship = sin? this is what we call bigotry. Mind you- you are free to practise your beliefs until you donot heap up your own verbal-trash on others’ beliefs!
Talking about Gandhiji, he looked at JC as one more saintly personality and nothing beyond that. Most of his principles are derived from what had born in India. Remember when a hakeem advised to feed his sick son atleast egg, he outright rejected the proposal. This was derived from the Indian principle of Ahimsa of not to harm even a tiny creature.
November 15th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Ajay Says:
“Great anti Christian Forum. Cheer to all who hate Christ and his Doctrine. Alas Gandhi became Mahatma subtlely by following the principles of Christ and making it his own principle and checkmate the rulers who claimed in believing christ..”
First of all, I welcome you, my true christian brother, for coming to this site and stating the truth about our lord and saviour, Jesus Christ. However, you have got this fact wrong – Gandhi did not become a mahatma by following the principles of our lord, Jesus Christ, because he was a heathen until the time he was shot by another heathen. Gandhi was a plant by the British, as was the Indian National Congress.
“Agreed USA is not a Christian Nation, neither Europians. Because Christianity did not originated in west but in Asia. I will no be surprised if USA becomes a majority Hindu nation or Europe a majority Muslim. Because non of them follow the principle of Christ. The Christian Principles are based on not some kind of religious system but on TRUTH.”
The USA is a Christian nation, as is Europe, and my true christian brother, Christianity did not originate in Asia – it originated in Holy Land, right now occupied by the killers of Jesus – the Jews. The pope never even utters the unholy name of Israel – he calls it “holy land”. Vatican has launched a new order of Christianity to convert these godless christ-killers to the way of our lord and saviour. This order is called “Messianic Judaism”. Yes, I know, our christianity is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Everything except jesus is false. Accept jesus into your heart and you will go to heaven, reject jesus and you will be burnt and sodomized by demons in hell. Jesus’s love for us is unconditional – all we have to do is everything that he says in the bible.
“TRUTH the world cannot understand neither the religions of the world can comprehend. If they would they would be the follower of Christ.
Christ Hates the SIN but Loves the Sinner. Every one born on the earth with a man is a born sinner and lives a sinful live. Nothing can give moksha to this fallen man.”
Yes, I agree with you on this as I stated above. We are all soaked in sin because Adam ate an apple from a tree after a snake convinced him that it was good for him. The blood of our lord purifies us of all sin. We are free to murder 6 million Jews (Hitler was a Roman Catholic). Jews are Christ killers anyway.
“There is no name given on the earth or below the earth or above the earth by which man will get moksha except the name of JESUS.”
There is no word called “moksha” in the holy bible. There is only salvation.
“Those who reject this GOSPEL are DESTINED FOR CONDEMNATION AND ETERNAL DISTRUCTION.
Now about Sex, Killings, or deception, it is that fallen human nature that manifest in all human beings of all races and religion. Because no religion can save a man from it including christian religious system. Only JESUS CHRIST can save.”
Yes, the bible tells us that if we reject jesus, we will go to hell and tortured by demons. However, if we follow jesus, we go straight to heaven, where there is plenty of wine. Christ is the saviour, everything else is false.
“I AM A HIGH CASTE HINDU CONVERT TO THE TRUTH (JESUS CHRIST).
NO POWER ON THE EARTH CAN BUY ME OR RULE OVER ME.”
So you quit your heathen ways and became a True Christian like me. Good for you. Heathens are going to hell. We, the true christians, are going to heaven. Praise the sweet name of jesus.
“Its OK for majority on the earth not to follow christ because they cannot.
Because it is easy to live in sin, sex, idol worship, money and hate.
About hinduism; its not a religion but the culture and traditions and practices followed by the people in INDUS Valley. I would not like to speak aboiut them. Let them analys their own belief system. They are responsible for their own distruction. Non of my concern except if any is ready to hear with a open heart.”
Now my true christian brother – this is not good on your part. Jesus must be followed, and we, the saved, are called upon to convert the heathens and plant the flag of jesus over the world. We shall convert the heathen Hindus as well. We already have in place our Prannoy James Roy spreading propaganda about Hinduism, and we have Sonia Antonio Maino, Raul John Paul Gandhi, and Bianca Gandhi Vadera in power. We also have other True Christians like Shiela Dikshit, Ambika Soni, and Digvijay Singh in places of power. They have to have heathen names because they are making out to be heathens, whereas they are True Christians and 100% saved. Right now the church is bringing up a whole lot of heathen converts with heathen Brahmin surnames, so it will be even easier for us to convert this heathen country into a true christian one.
Praise the sweet name of the lard. Glory ! Glory ! Glory !
December 4th, 2009 at 11:39 am
Ajay Says:
“”"November 15th, 2009 at 6:03 am Great anti Christian Forum. Cheer to all who hate Christ and his Doctrine. Alas Gandhi became Mahatma subtlely by following the principles of Christ and making it his own principle and checkmate the rulers who claimed in believing christ..”"”
You are just a converted chiristian hence you dont know the real spritualistic. Chiristian is a religion my dear we should be religious rather than a fanatic and converting inocent to chiristianity. Do our chirist wants cadre does he run a religion party.
How can you say that gandhi follow this stupid cristian religion. You go and read OT fully its full of sex,killing and cunning. Same starting from abraham (marries his own sister and sold it ) Ruben enjoyed his own dauter in law.The only selector of Nova who is dranken ….
You mean to say kind only to human is that our chirist thought nonsense.
Then what about other animal & Nature shall we kill destray enjoy. Is that our chiristianity thought us. Just showing kind to human ( that too for conversion sake). And looting nature and animal .. You know one thing that after chiristianity comes only this global warming problem started. Reason chiristianity advacate only world pleasure but indian veda advacate “Aham Bramosmi ” Thathuamasi”…. What ever inside in you is inside in everybody and everthing that you see. So we are not different from anything. Only one existence is pervaded that is athman. Though i like but yet my fate born to chiristian family .. I know all indian chiristian ;will become indian cultured people that is not far … i put foward..prolonging.. i will merge with that….
You innocent Ajay but will have another 20 years to learn chiristianity understand logicless religion a brutal religion but just using chirist name.. When the total world is realizing but A Fool still there…
December 4th, 2009 at 11:53 am
Ajay:”"”The Christian Principles are based on not some kind of religious system but on TRUTH. TRUTH the world cannot understand neither the religions of the world can comprehend. If they would they would be the follower of Christ.
Christ Hates the SIN but Loves the Sinner. Every one born on the earth with a man is a born sinner and lives a sinful live”"
Ruben:
What is truth& sin according to you.. Fool you are.. We all kill goat,sheep,cock,bull,even cow ( i dont eat cow bull. cow gives us everything i like indian doctrine) but you call it sinless bloodyful life dont you thing that you are fool nonsense?
Do you thing that Just Becouse of OT nonsense, we have to presume that other than man nonthing has jaan( jeev). Since our religion has given clean chit hence can kill everything& loot everything, its a fool religion my dear. At least you have chance to get rid off but me its society that advacate but I am very sure day is not far to merge with indialogi that is only the TRUTH
December 12th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
Black sheep are present in all religions, granted. What we are saying is that here the whole religion is comprised of black sheep. What would you call a religion that placed its festivals on Pagan ones, and subsequently hijacked them for its own ?
Things They Don’t Tell You
about Christianity
http://freetruth.50webs.org/
February 8th, 2010 at 1:47 pm
YOU BLOODY RSS MAN ! DO YOU THINK BY MALIGNING THE CATHOLIC NUNS , LACS OF WHOM DO SELF-LESS SERVICE TO THE HUMANITY WILL STOP IT ?
LET YOU MAD DOGS BARK !!
HAVING RENOUNCED THE VOWS OF POVERTY,OBEDIENCE ETC HOW CAN SHE CONTINUE TO BE CALLED A “Sr. ?”
February 8th, 2010 at 1:51 pm
@ Ajit Nair,
Seems like you need psycho help.
From where did bloody RSS come here?
Why should you blame the RSS if padres rape your nun.
Something wrong with the frock.